Discounting your art

Again today, via my website, I was asked by an unknown potential buyer to give a better price on an artwork. I responded, I can raise the price if you like. That clearly wasn’t what the person wanted to hear. I continued. But if you purchase two, three or four of my artworks in one purchase, then yes, I will give you a discount. If you are an existing client with who has previously purchased artworks from me, then yes I will give you a discount. Yes I will give you a discount if you collect the artwork directly from my studio and pay cash. I continued “I work as a full time artist i.e. its not done as a hobby. You, by asking me, for a discount on my work its just like your employer asking you to take a pay-cut for what you do, lets say a 20% cut in your monthly pay cheque. So how would you feel about taking that discount on your income on your labour”? Why the discount on a multiple purchase? Parcel freight of artworks is based not on their weight but its ‘ cube’. Cube is the multiplication of the external measurements of the final package [length x height x width]. The cost of a typical packed artwork equates to a 15kg parcel and up to four identical sized artworks can be fitted into almost the same sized package. About once a year I open a clearance online e-commerce page to my website for the clearance from the studio of a few remaining unloved [and unframed]or otherwise discontinued artwork themes. Their typical sales price is reduced by about 50%. My collectors are informed by email beforehand and are given four weeks to make their purchases, then It appears on my website without further notice again its a limited offer for four weeks only.

I’m a co-director at the Red Bluff Art Gallery in Northern California. I’m also a represented artist. The Gallery policy is that when work is brought in the artist and gallery sign an agreement that includes the possibility of a discount. The field is left blank, but generally, 10% is recommended and anything over the agreed amount requires an offer in writing from the buyer and a counter-signature by the artist to “OK” the deal. This arrangement is working well for us. (However, some customers – and some artists have tried to by-pass the gallery. We’ve had to throw out two artists this year for dishonest transactions.) Times are tough…but having an agreement in writing seems to work best for us.

Whenever anything with a subjective value is discounted, the potential buyer questions that value.

Another solution: sell your work on the internet. A good topic for a next letter?

Discount my prices any more and the next step is taping bank notes to the back of them to get them to move. Sorry to whine. There are problems at every level of business.

If discounting becomes the norm, there will a belief in the buyer’s mind that the price is inflated. Art is one of those commodities that can be any price depending on what a buyer is willing to pay for it. Look to the plastic Shark in the tank. Sold for over fourteen million dollars. Go figure. I prefer not to call it discounting, this brings art down to the level of shoes or apples. I prefer a “negotiable adjustment” in price agreed upon between the buyer and seller and gallery if there is one involved. I don’t feel a gallery has the right to adjust an artist’s prices without a written agreement. When I do faire’s, I will adjust a price that is resonably to both. They are getting a deal and I don’t feel I gave it away.

Marsha – Work that is good will find a buyer. If you take it back from a gallery unsold, store it for another day, time and place. I’ve sold work that was ten years old but never seen but once. As a full time artist you have to remember you will have “early work”, “mid career work” and “mature work” and these will shift as you age. I’m in the process of mounting a show of my pastels which were painted some four, five or even ten years ago but never shown. If at the end of your life you remain with a studio full of work, well, then it’s someone else to worry about. Integrity is most important as an artist. Giving it away, once you’ve acheived some success, is for hobbyists.

These works on Mr Max’s site are advertised as “Giclees on canvas.” No wonder they are discounted. What are they? I suspect they may be merely photoshopped photos, cheap to produce and easy to breed.

These images are for people who merely need images on their walls. Who did them and how they are made is not important to the buyers of this sort of work. The merchandising aspect reflects this.

Tony, if you have “dozens of galleries” you must produce dozens of paintings per month, if not more. That would make you a formulaic painter. And if that is true, you deserve all the discounting you get.

More expensive painting shoppers these days are finicky, waffling and like to haggle. Art dealers struggling to make ends meet are tempted to give in to the demands for discounts so they can pay their rent, or the customers might walk away. That formidable downward pressure on market prices coming from both art buyers and art dealers makes it difficult for most artists to raise their painting prices by a set percentage annually, but raising the prices is what they need to do establish investment value in their originals.

Robert, I think you’ve lost your mind! You can’t be so out of touch- when on earth did you have this conversation of having the dealer return a painting someone had an interest in? It sounds more like 1986 rather than now. Any dealer that is still open for business, is lucky to have any interest in anything! Gone are the days of a dealer buying the artist a Jag, if you get my ardent drift! The dealers have closed for good in the western, central & the eastern part of Kansas (east of the state line) & Missouri doesn’t look much better. Come on, how do dealers allow themselves these “games” on your behalf. I don’t really know what sounds more unethical in your related story, you guys or the ornery customer who gets beat out of a painting, has to concede to buy another, and therefore, is taught a”lesson” by you & the dealer, and everything comes out rosy. The reality is that the artist DOES NEED to work had-in-glove with the dealer, I think you made that clear. They might have to go to 25% – which is fair, especially if the artist maintains his retail anywhere he shows or hosts his own show. Professional artists need to always have a retail & a wholesale price- always, and you’ve got to be able to work with people. In my experience, working with all but thugs, will increase sales numbers, even if they’re not exactly close to what everyone would like. We are vulnerable at this time to the “art raptors”- it is a fact, however we want it not to be. Governor Brownback just canned everyone at the Kansas Arts Commission- told them they would receive $200K & that’s it- go fund yourselves as a separate organization, not a Kansas Government entity, he told them. This past weekend we hosted The Mid-Winter Art Fair in the Ward Parkway Shopping Center, the first enclosed “Mall” in the United States for the 48th straight year. We really drew in the buyers by doing a significant TV spread of 15 second ads & radio with the NPR affiliate. I know you ‘re not fond of fairs, but hey, the dealers are (mostly) all gone around here! We all found that even in the highest price points ($500 & up to 1K, we had alot more luck closing sales going with a reduced (verbal only) price. It was the first year we’ve been successful there in a long time, and it was not a garage sale crowd either. The artist who wrote to you probably is not in the price point your work is- the last time I looked, your 8 by 10’s were very pricey- $600 I think, maybe $800? If he or she was in your price league, I can almost assure you this would not be a question posed by someone with a large amount of experience & demand for their work was as high. I realize you answer alot of questions brought to you, and that you are committed to “coaching them up” and that you offer your perspective on things. I am certainly not out to offend, you have been and continue to be an inspiration to all of us. I consider you a good friend. I see things as they are, and wonder what can be done, to help make things turn out like they ought to- didn’t Robert Kennedy say something to this effect once? I direct two artspaces, help with a bank lobby, and try my hardest to make opportunity from all of them. I was able to get $1,400 for 10 of us doing images for the Kansas Lottery- you can see them at www.Kansaslottery.com – they put 4 images on the scratcher tickets & the actual framed paintings are “second-chance” drawing prizes. We’re hosting events until August to celebrate our Sequicentennial & sell other images of Kansas History. I need to do more to sell the other originals that each artist has contributed to the exhibition. I “blinked” & bought a small frame shop here in Kansas City. My oldest is in her 3rd year of college & young one next year goes, so it’s “hammer time” around here. The paintings are doing fine, like a well-oiled, part-time job; selling about as many as before. The shop is actually doing OK. Lots of pitfalls, even for someone as experienced as me- I’ve been framing for 35 years for other shops. The first 6 months was alot like drowning in a waterfall- I couldn’t get up to the “surface” to breathe. Made alot of progress, not a lot of money. Be assured Bob, it’s tough out here…The “rules” are being re-invented every day! Gardner, Kansas…Kansas City, Missouri USA

I agree with Jamie about artists and art dealers’ diminished clout. Although records are being set at the top of the art market, even some top-end art has suffered price declines during this Great Recession. It’s tough for artists nowadays to steer the behaviour of dealers and retail customers to respect artists’ prices. These are the ’10s – not the heady ’80s – when art buyers were more liberal. Also, I don’t think it’s easy for art buyers in most cases to ascertain which galleries are fudging prices of paintings – and to ascertain what artists’ standard prices are – because there are so many variables involved in pricing art. Paintings vary by size and therefore bigger paintings are priced higher. Do art buyers sit with a calculator by their computer looking at Web sites doing ratios to figure out what the price per square inch or foot is for an artist’s paintings exhibited at different galleries? Some might do so – but only for the most expensive art. Even then, art buyers have to be like accountants to try to compare prices of an artist’s art among galleries. For example, some paintings are exhibited framed and others are unframed, so prices therefore vary. Many art galleries – and artist and gallery advertising such as Web sites, tear sheets and magazine ads – don’t display prices of paintings – or only show the prices of some paintings – making price comparisons difficult. Determining artists’ standard prices, and whether or not galleries are charging commissions that are too low or high, is also difficult because galleries have different commissions, which may or may not be reflected in the retail prices of the paintings consigned by artists to the galleries. Also, some dealers discount paintings if they feel the paintings have been on the gallery walls too long. In addition, some art buyers still don’t even use the Internet, so those people can’t even try to benefit from the Internet’s abundance of information. And many art buyers don’t know which galleries represent a particular artist, making price comparisons impractical. Some price lists of artists’ currently available paintings – both online and on paper – are not kept up-to-date.

It is funny, but really bad art.

You better be able to laugh at yourself if you purchase one of these extravagant paintings!

Tont Max writes…Paintings vary by size and therefore bigger paintings are priced higher. Do art buyers sit with a calculator by their computer looking at Web sites doing ratios to figure out what the price per square inch or foot is for an artist’s paintings exhibited at different galleries? Some might do so – but only for the most expensive art. A simple spread sheet can be constructed…feed in the dimensions…the cost of the canvas…a notional price per square centimetre…add the framing costs…then the shipping costs to the home market [in my case the UK]…the home market…the European market…and the north American [Canada/USA]…It is so simple I made one. All artworks cost the same to paint regardless of size…Think about it?

Art is not so much a “retail” store as it is a “market”…meaning there is more “dealing” in art than just selling art. All artists must determine what deal works for them in their market opportunities…it’s not the same for all.

re: discounting What if, instead of discounting, artists were to add in value? For example: someone wants to buy a painting for 300 dollars. They ask for a discount. Instead, the artist says, “no, I cannot discount this….I have to maintain consistency in my prices. But, I would love to give you a set of these cards or a print of this other piece.” That way, the client has a sense of being “special” or having gotten something for nothing, while the artist can give away items that they may have in inventory that are not selling as well. This might even be a good way to clear out some of those older “vintage” works. I don’t know that this would work for the high-end market, but at the level where I rattle around, it works pretty well.

Chacun a son gout. Perhaps his work requires a new category; somewhere between cartoon and illustration. His circus mirror effects don’t seem to have a purpose as did Guernica or some of Goya’s etchings. Sometimes art prepares us to see things. Hmm…rather; uh oh!

I think it is social commentary.

It is social commentary.

As a broker who deals directly with artists, I do sometimes buy from galleries or other dealers. “Discounts” should come out of the dealer’s commission, or in my case shared between dealers. The only other discounts I offered when I had a gallery was for removing the frame for clients who wanted to frame the art themselves. I feel strongly that the artist should always net 50% of the sale price.

“Maltemi wrote: “Tony Max writes…Paintings vary by size and therefore bigger paintings are priced higher. Do art buyers sit with a calculator by their computer looking at Web sites doing ratios to figure out what the price per square inch or foot is for an artist’s paintings exhibited at different galleries? Some might do so – but only for the most expensive art. A simple spread sheet can be constructed…feed in the dimensions…the cost of the canvas…a notional price per square centimetre…add the framing costs…then the shipping costs to the home market [in my case the UK]…the home market…the European market…and the north American [Canada/USA]…It is so simple I made one. All artworks cost the same to paint regardless of size…” Maltemi, you’ve misunderstood what I wrote. I didn’t write about how artists can determine their unit pricing; I wrote that it’s difficult – if not impossible – in most cases, for ART GALLERY CUSTOMERS to figure out what artists’ standard unit prices are for their paintings. I wrote that in response to Robert, who penned this (near the top of this page), “Since the advent of the Internet, savvy customers soon find an artist’s standard prices and scout the best prices across an artist’s stable of dealers. Further, they quickly note dealers who offer work with the prices fudged up. This false pricing or profiteering is defended by some dealers to give them wiggle room for further discounting. It may seem like smart marketing, but the practice tends to make it more difficult for the fudging dealers to do business.”

I agree Marilyn, it’s social commentary.

Condo would be an amazing person to meet for cocktails.

Perceived value folks. If you do not perceive it as valuable then no one else will either.

From what I’ve been reading, the problem is with the artists themselves. If you believe your work is discountable, then for sure it is. If your willing to take less than you are the problem not the galleries or the buyers. You deserve less if you value you work so little. If you don’t value your effort and think you are worth the money, then I guess you should stop talking about it and take what you get.

I have seen some of these paintings in art magazines. Or someplace. They give me the creeps as does that other fellow who smears the figure all over. Now his name wont come. He was English, I think. I also get the creeps from old Roman, Egyptian or Greek faces with the noses broken off. Do I need perfection? Maybe.

I do not know what to say. I have looked once and won’t forget, no matter what I actually think.

Thanks for your info on how to sell art. I find it hard to sell art much over $200.00 in this depressed market …jobs are hard to come by, some are out of work and it is hard in a small town. I’ve made giclees and digital prints for years in addition to selling original art but have never advanced my prices accordingly and I did very well in good times. Now, sales are so slow & I wonder what to do. Doris Olsen